yarol_2075 (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
yarol_2075) wrote2006-03-05 04:20 pm
yarol_2075) wrote2006-03-05 04:20 pm
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I really should be writing posts for my RPG. I should. Really. But I’ve been feeling a bit funky lately (Please don’t worry, overall I’m fine, yes, you know who you are.) And I got sucked into reading a Star Wars debate over whether Luke would be able to forgive his father/believe Vader capable of redemption/there still being good in Vader, if he knew about all Vader had done (slaughter the younglings, force-choke his mother, etc.) And I ended up being struck by the fact that most, if not all, of the debaters never hit upon what seems to me to be obvious. To me, it seems that it isn’t so much a matter of Luke forgiving/redeeming Vader, as Vader coming to believe that Vader still had some good in him, and was still capable of going good (in the form of getting rid of the Emperor).
Vader, in my opinion, has fallen into despair, and believes that he is incapable of being and doing anything other than evil. There’s a story in one issue of the now defuncted Star Wars Tales comic where a character asks what Vader could hate that could give him such power, Vader answers: “Myself.” Now I fully realize that the story is EU continuity (dubious EU continuity at best considering the other major character), but that answer rings true to me. Vader believes himself completely beyond redemption, completely beyond ever doing a good act again, possibly viewing that he had always been incapable of doing real, selfless good. And certainly everyone else around him agrees. Even Yoda and Obi Wan Kenobi believe that. (Okay, Padme believed there was still good in him, but she up and croaked instead of doing something about it.)
Along comes Luke.
Luke is first lead to believe Vader killed his father. Then gets a rude awakening by Vader himself, that, although Luke would like not to believe but he can’t help but sense the truth in it, Vader is Luke’s father. Luke gets this confirmed by Yoda, and both Yoda and Obi Wan have just as a hard time believing Luke’s assertion that Vader has good in him as they did Padme’s.
So we get the confrontation between Vader and Luke in front of the Emperor. Luke initially ends up fighting Vader…so on and so forth…until Luke comes to the right decision and tells the Emperor where he can go stick it and Luke isn’t going to fight any more, and further more that he, Luke, is a Jedi like his father before him. All while said father is standing there as a Sith Lord. We all know the Emperor’s response. But I can’t help imagine what’s going on in Vader’s head: Luke’s been insisting that there’s still good in him, despite Vader’s own insistence to the contrary. Luke claims to be a Jedi. Further more Luke is the Jedi that Vader never believed himself capable of being (Remember Vader always viewed that he should be the most powerful Jedi, never quite getting that being a Jedi does not necessarily just mean being powerful.) And Luke obviously still believes that Vader is that Jedi, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Vader, I believe, came to realize that even if Luke’s belief is false, he can still do something to ensure that the Jedi Vader could never be would still exist in Luke, who really is not that powerful. He sacrifices his own existence by throwing the Emperor into the power core. In essence unwittingly proving that he is still capable of doing something good, even if it’s only saving the life of his son (talk about a relatively small act having incredible external ramifications) at the cost of his own.
So at the end of this long winded and rather circular ramble, my point is not that Vader’s redemption had anything to do with forgiveness of his “sins” or Luke’s belief that Vader was still capable of good, but everything to do with Vader coming to believe that, however hidden and thought to be lost, Vader could still be/do good. Perhaps one could argue that that really isn't redemption, but I believe it's the closest any of us can hope for.
Vader, in my opinion, has fallen into despair, and believes that he is incapable of being and doing anything other than evil. There’s a story in one issue of the now defuncted Star Wars Tales comic where a character asks what Vader could hate that could give him such power, Vader answers: “Myself.” Now I fully realize that the story is EU continuity (dubious EU continuity at best considering the other major character), but that answer rings true to me. Vader believes himself completely beyond redemption, completely beyond ever doing a good act again, possibly viewing that he had always been incapable of doing real, selfless good. And certainly everyone else around him agrees. Even Yoda and Obi Wan Kenobi believe that. (Okay, Padme believed there was still good in him, but she up and croaked instead of doing something about it.)
Along comes Luke.
Luke is first lead to believe Vader killed his father. Then gets a rude awakening by Vader himself, that, although Luke would like not to believe but he can’t help but sense the truth in it, Vader is Luke’s father. Luke gets this confirmed by Yoda, and both Yoda and Obi Wan have just as a hard time believing Luke’s assertion that Vader has good in him as they did Padme’s.
So we get the confrontation between Vader and Luke in front of the Emperor. Luke initially ends up fighting Vader…so on and so forth…until Luke comes to the right decision and tells the Emperor where he can go stick it and Luke isn’t going to fight any more, and further more that he, Luke, is a Jedi like his father before him. All while said father is standing there as a Sith Lord. We all know the Emperor’s response. But I can’t help imagine what’s going on in Vader’s head: Luke’s been insisting that there’s still good in him, despite Vader’s own insistence to the contrary. Luke claims to be a Jedi. Further more Luke is the Jedi that Vader never believed himself capable of being (Remember Vader always viewed that he should be the most powerful Jedi, never quite getting that being a Jedi does not necessarily just mean being powerful.) And Luke obviously still believes that Vader is that Jedi, despite all evidence to the contrary.
Vader, I believe, came to realize that even if Luke’s belief is false, he can still do something to ensure that the Jedi Vader could never be would still exist in Luke, who really is not that powerful. He sacrifices his own existence by throwing the Emperor into the power core. In essence unwittingly proving that he is still capable of doing something good, even if it’s only saving the life of his son (talk about a relatively small act having incredible external ramifications) at the cost of his own.
So at the end of this long winded and rather circular ramble, my point is not that Vader’s redemption had anything to do with forgiveness of his “sins” or Luke’s belief that Vader was still capable of good, but everything to do with Vader coming to believe that, however hidden and thought to be lost, Vader could still be/do good. Perhaps one could argue that that really isn't redemption, but I believe it's the closest any of us can hope for.
no subject
Think you have to remember, upon being 're-assembled' as Vader, that Anakin was led to believe he murdered his own wife. IMHO, his actions that eventually had led him to the dark side were all ramifications of his misinterpretation of the visions he had of Padme's demise in the first place. (Provided I am remembering the story correctly.) One would think true love would keep a person good, but let's face it, love can make a person do truly stupid things.
Luke & Leia's mother is pretty much absent from Epiodes IV -- VI, but I think that is a natural result of the order in which the movies were made. It's too bad because she played a major role in Anakin's turn to Vader. Though I don't think it's fair to say that saving his son's life is , I agree redemption does lie in forgiveness, and mostly in ourselves.
no subject
I meant small in relation to everything else going on in the GFFA. It's not my intention to diminish Vader's action in any way, afterall it is often the small, almost hidden acts that change everything.
no subject
*tight breathtaking hug*
Oh, Vader, vader, vader! One of my fave chara!
I think you're right but I also think that Vader came to believe he could do good because Luke trusted in him, trusted in him even when that meant to put his life in his hands and the emperor's, his friends in dangers and so the whole mission.
Anakin seemed to desperately believe he was born to do something great but people around him didn't share his belief. The Jedis didn't fully trust him/didn't make him feel apprecciated, Obi Wan considers him too young and even Padme tried to tell him to not aim too high.
Only 'dear' Palptine seemed to trust him (and we immediatly see how Anakin wanders around him in search of approvation and trust him) and it turns out he did it to use him and was ready to get rid of him once he found Luke (despite calling Vader 'friend'... the bastard...)
Anakin began as a small kid who'd been took away from his mother because a Jedi told him he was going to be the chosen one. When Yoda questioned him he admitted he was scared. He probably based his self confidence on the belief that he was going to do something great.
To be a jedi he had lost his mother twice, one when he left her and one when she died and he came to late to save her (and I'm sure he felt guilty of it).
He was paranoid about losing Padme and when he lost her and believed it was his fault his world must have crumbled on him.
I tend to think he didn't had all that self confidence he showed off.
Luke's trust must have given him the courage to trust in himself so yes, his redention is due to teh fact he believed he could do good but I don't know if he would have gotten that far had Luke turned against him, instead than supporting him...
But I admit that my knowledge of SW is limited at the movies and some of them are a little blurry in my memory...